Comments on: Go Downtier http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2007/10/go-downtier.html the tao of criminal defense trial lawyering Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:33:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Mark Bennett http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2007/10/go-downtier.html/comment-page-1#comment-594 Mark Bennett Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:27:00 +0000 http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=358#comment-594 Carolyn,<br/><br/>Thanks for the comment. <br/><br/>What did you do for the five years between law school and hanging out a shingle? Carolyn,

Thanks for the comment.

What did you do for the five years between law school and hanging out a shingle?

]]> By: Anonymous http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2007/10/go-downtier.html/comment-page-1#comment-592 Anonymous Thu, 25 Oct 2007 04:41:00 +0000 http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=358#comment-592 I'm a little late in commenting on this post, but I would have to disagree. My feeling is that you go to the very best school that you get into unless there are significant financial or geographic reasons for doing otherwise. I went to Cornell, which hover between 11 and 15 on the so-called top ten lists, for what they are worth. I went solo back in 1993, 5 years out of law school, and I can tell you that my Cornell degree has generated significant revenue for me. Because of my school, I received referrals, lucrative contract work that would never have otherwise come my way. moreover, I have been able to build a solo practice that encompasses energy regulatory work (which has always been a money maker) and more interested court appointed criminal work (which I did when I started my firm and 2 years thereafter).<br/>I know that I part ways with my solo colleagues on this, but I believe that skills training in law school is overrated. I think that students should get a couple of skills courses, work at firms or government jobs over the summer, etc...But you never really learn how to do something until you watch real lawyer in court and then hop in and do it yourself. I took a 3 day public defender seminar to prepare for my court appointed criminal cases. The kinds of things you don't learn on the job are how to think, how to reason and how to analyze and distinguish cases and how to write. Those are the skills that I learned in law school, the rest I have figured out on my own.<br/>Carolyn Elefant<br/>www.myshingle.com I’m a little late in commenting on this post, but I would have to disagree. My feeling is that you go to the very best school that you get into unless there are significant financial or geographic reasons for doing otherwise. I went to Cornell, which hover between 11 and 15 on the so-called top ten lists, for what they are worth. I went solo back in 1993, 5 years out of law school, and I can tell you that my Cornell degree has generated significant revenue for me. Because of my school, I received referrals, lucrative contract work that would never have otherwise come my way. moreover, I have been able to build a solo practice that encompasses energy regulatory work (which has always been a money maker) and more interested court appointed criminal work (which I did when I started my firm and 2 years thereafter).
I know that I part ways with my solo colleagues on this, but I believe that skills training in law school is overrated. I think that students should get a couple of skills courses, work at firms or government jobs over the summer, etc…But you never really learn how to do something until you watch real lawyer in court and then hop in and do it yourself. I took a 3 day public defender seminar to prepare for my court appointed criminal cases. The kinds of things you don’t learn on the job are how to think, how to reason and how to analyze and distinguish cases and how to write. Those are the skills that I learned in law school, the rest I have figured out on my own.
Carolyn Elefant
http://www.myshingle.com

]]> By: shg http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2007/10/go-downtier.html/comment-page-1#comment-585 shg Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:30:00 +0000 http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=358#comment-585 They have something called a "Plea Bargaining Seminar?" Do they use desks in the classroom, or make you take the entire course on your knees? They have something called a “Plea Bargaining Seminar?” Do they use desks in the classroom, or make you take the entire course on your knees?

]]> By: Mark Bennett http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2007/10/go-downtier.html/comment-page-1#comment-584 Mark Bennett Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:00:00 +0000 http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=358#comment-584 Bill M, thanks for the comment. One thing that I think the law schools should teach is how to hang out a shingle on the cheap. If you're a new lawyer and you don't have either family money or a spouse who works, you're probably undercapitalized. <br/><br/>Zeb, I think you've got it right, but I'll move your post up to a new blog posting so that others see it and weigh in. Bill M, thanks for the comment. One thing that I think the law schools should teach is how to hang out a shingle on the cheap. If you’re a new lawyer and you don’t have either family money or a spouse who works, you’re probably undercapitalized.

Zeb, I think you’ve got it right, but I’ll move your post up to a new blog posting so that others see it and weigh in.

]]> By: Zeb http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2007/10/go-downtier.html/comment-page-1#comment-582 Zeb Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:43:00 +0000 http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=358#comment-582 I'm a second year student at the University of Baltimore, a supposedly 4th tier school (that just happens to supply the bulk of trial lawyers in Baltimore). Mr. Bennett's intial post has inspired me to post this comment seeking advice. I have an interest in a criminal defense career. Given the nature of the law school course requirements and scheduling, it looks like I'll have to make choices between taking substantive criminal law electives (Constitutional Criminal Procedure II, Federal Criminal Practice, Forensic Evidence, Sentencing and Plea Bargaining Seminar), and legal skills classes (trial advocacy, advanced trial ad, bench trial ad, appellate ad, litigation process, criminal law clinic , etc.). Which type of course is more valuable--the substantive course or the skills course? <br/><br/>My instincts tell me that one can learn the substantive law via independent study, and so I should load up on the more practical legal skills courses while making sure I take the not required but highly recommended bar-tested courses. Do you folks agree? If not, why not? I’m a second year student at the University of Baltimore, a supposedly 4th tier school (that just happens to supply the bulk of trial lawyers in Baltimore). Mr. Bennett’s intial post has inspired me to post this comment seeking advice. I have an interest in a criminal defense career. Given the nature of the law school course requirements and scheduling, it looks like I’ll have to make choices between taking substantive criminal law electives (Constitutional Criminal Procedure II, Federal Criminal Practice, Forensic Evidence, Sentencing and Plea Bargaining Seminar), and legal skills classes (trial advocacy, advanced trial ad, bench trial ad, appellate ad, litigation process, criminal law clinic , etc.). Which type of course is more valuable–the substantive course or the skills course?

My instincts tell me that one can learn the substantive law via independent study, and so I should load up on the more practical legal skills courses while making sure I take the not required but highly recommended bar-tested courses. Do you folks agree? If not, why not?

]]> By: Bill M http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2007/10/go-downtier.html/comment-page-1#comment-577 Bill M Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:53:00 +0000 http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=358#comment-577 Damn straight!<br/><br/>As a recent grad UT Law in Austin whose considering hanging out a shingle once the bar results come back (but I'm badly...under-capitalized), my guess is that you are absolutely right. We got no support or even a suggestion that it was possible for a young lawyer to hang out a shingle.<br/><br/><br/>UT, and probably many prestigious schools, mostly cares about moving the top 10% of students into the top 10 law firms. For everyone else they have something between pity and contempt. This hyper-focus on moving people into the top firms leaves those of us who are not destined by grades or natures for such work at something of a loss for career plans. Damn straight!

As a recent grad UT Law in Austin whose considering hanging out a shingle once the bar results come back (but I’m badly…under-capitalized), my guess is that you are absolutely right. We got no support or even a suggestion that it was possible for a young lawyer to hang out a shingle.

UT, and probably many prestigious schools, mostly cares about moving the top 10% of students into the top 10 law firms. For everyone else they have something between pity and contempt. This hyper-focus on moving people into the top firms leaves those of us who are not destined by grades or natures for such work at something of a loss for career plans.

]]> By: shg http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2007/10/go-downtier.html/comment-page-1#comment-576 shg Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:53:00 +0000 http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=358#comment-576 Malum, you're male? Malum, you’re male?

]]> By: Malum http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2007/10/go-downtier.html/comment-page-1#comment-575 Malum Sat, 20 Oct 2007 05:50:00 +0000 http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=358#comment-575 I had the unique pleasure of attending a historically black college for law school. Howard provided me with a well rounded education which prepared me not only to work in a big firm but to hang my own shingle as well. <br/><br/>The greatest advantage I find in attending Howard is that it gives me an automatic credibility with my Black clients. <br/><br/>It is hard enough sitting down with a client and overcoming the presumptions most of o0ur clients have about PD's, but when they find out I went to Howard the response is surprise and curiosity as to why this "white boy" went to Howard. (most of my clients don't believe i am Mexican) This is generally followed by a sense of mutual respect that gets me better cooperation than my colleagues seem to get. <br/><br/>I wouldn't change my law school experience for the world. I had the unique pleasure of attending a historically black college for law school. Howard provided me with a well rounded education which prepared me not only to work in a big firm but to hang my own shingle as well.

The greatest advantage I find in attending Howard is that it gives me an automatic credibility with my Black clients.

It is hard enough sitting down with a client and overcoming the presumptions most of o0ur clients have about PD’s, but when they find out I went to Howard the response is surprise and curiosity as to why this “white boy” went to Howard. (most of my clients don’t believe i am Mexican) This is generally followed by a sense of mutual respect that gets me better cooperation than my colleagues seem to get.

I wouldn’t change my law school experience for the world.

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