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	<title>Comments on: Former Prosecutors III &#8212; A Specific Case</title>
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	<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html</link>
	<description>the tao of criminal defense trial lawyering</description>
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		<title>By: pro.victims</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2470</link>
		<dc:creator>pro.victims</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2470</guid>
		<description>Jack - when  they crammed the OR, I wonder - had you read it like the ADA asked?  Did you leave out info from the OR that the defendant (and thus his lawyer) knew that the DA didn&#039;t?  I&#039;ve always loved being surprised and embarrassed in front of a jury because the police failed to tell me something that should have been in the OR.  Especially on first degree felony cases.

I&#039;ve always found my relationship with cops at the DAO to be one of mutual respect and disrespect - I trust that some know more than me, that I know more than some, that our jobs are different, and that we each have different expectations of each other.  Unlike cops though, I didn&#039;t get paid overtime for trial prep and trial work, or pretrial, or anything else for that matter.  When making all those Saturday and Sunday phone calls,  do it because it&#039;s the right thing to do.

Nevertheless, I&#039;ve always tried to treat police officers with respect, even when we didn&#039;t agree.    I&#039;ve tried to treat victims with respect when they had unrealistic expectations of the system.  I&#039;ve tried to treat defendants and their families with respect, even when they were unrealistic, or even threatening to me or my witnesses.

No one is perfect.  ADA&#039;s, police, defense lawyers. Voters, too, I guess.

Mark, as far as ex-ADA&#039;s making good or bad defense lawyers - each lawyer is his or her own.  Charlie Davidson laid some law on some bad folk, but he&#039;s a hell of a good defense lawyer.  A lot of defense lawyers, by contrast, left the DAO, because they weren&#039;t good lawyers at all, and they persist in being bad.  Then there are those who left the DA&#039;s office because they wanted the courtroom experience, but didn&#039;t want to prosecute at all, and now, they are answering their calling, and doing a fine job.  I guess it&#039;s the whole range.

And, it&#039;s true, I have no social life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack &#8211; when  they crammed the OR, I wonder &#8211; had you read it like the ADA asked?  Did you leave out info from the OR that the defendant (and thus his lawyer) knew that the DA didn&#8217;t?  I&#8217;ve always loved being surprised and embarrassed in front of a jury because the police failed to tell me something that should have been in the OR.  Especially on first degree felony cases.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always found my relationship with cops at the DAO to be one of mutual respect and disrespect &#8211; I trust that some know more than me, that I know more than some, that our jobs are different, and that we each have different expectations of each other.  Unlike cops though, I didn&#8217;t get paid overtime for trial prep and trial work, or pretrial, or anything else for that matter.  When making all those Saturday and Sunday phone calls,  do it because it&#8217;s the right thing to do.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I&#8217;ve always tried to treat police officers with respect, even when we didn&#8217;t agree.    I&#8217;ve tried to treat victims with respect when they had unrealistic expectations of the system.  I&#8217;ve tried to treat defendants and their families with respect, even when they were unrealistic, or even threatening to me or my witnesses.</p>
<p>No one is perfect.  ADA&#8217;s, police, defense lawyers. Voters, too, I guess.</p>
<p>Mark, as far as ex-ADA&#8217;s making good or bad defense lawyers &#8211; each lawyer is his or her own.  Charlie Davidson laid some law on some bad folk, but he&#8217;s a hell of a good defense lawyer.  A lot of defense lawyers, by contrast, left the DAO, because they weren&#8217;t good lawyers at all, and they persist in being bad.  Then there are those who left the DA&#8217;s office because they wanted the courtroom experience, but didn&#8217;t want to prosecute at all, and now, they are answering their calling, and doing a fine job.  I guess it&#8217;s the whole range.</p>
<p>And, it&#8217;s true, I have no social life.</p>
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		<title>By: Fat Tony</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2462</link>
		<dc:creator>Fat Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 02:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2462</guid>
		<description>Siegler would be a great defense lawyer if she wanted to be. Any one that knows her or tried a case against her knows that. She doesn&#039;t need the cash so I doubt she does it. The voters screwed up. Elections have consequences. You&#039;ll have a choice of two idiots in the fall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Siegler would be a great defense lawyer if she wanted to be. Any one that knows her or tried a case against her knows that. She doesn&#8217;t need the cash so I doubt she does it. The voters screwed up. Elections have consequences. You&#8217;ll have a choice of two idiots in the fall.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2449</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2449</guid>
		<description>I will give credit where credit is due. I only got better after having a defense attorney stick a report up my ass in court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will give credit where credit is due. I only got better after having a defense attorney stick a report up my ass in court.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2440</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 19:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2440</guid>
		<description>When the prosecutors and the cops are shooting at each other, there&#039;s nothing for the defense to do except sit back and enjoy.

Pro.v, your 8:03 Friday evening post (yours and my response to your prior must&#039;ve passed each other by) illustrates not (a) that, like the rest of us posting on Friday evening, you probably have no social life; and (b) why great prosecutors don&#039;t necessarily make good defense lawyers. You&#039;re agreeing with me, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the prosecutors and the cops are shooting at each other, there&#8217;s nothing for the defense to do except sit back and enjoy.</p>
<p>Pro.v, your 8:03 Friday evening post (yours and my response to your prior must&#8217;ve passed each other by) illustrates not (a) that, like the rest of us posting on Friday evening, you probably have no social life; and (b) why great prosecutors don&#8217;t necessarily make good defense lawyers. You&#8217;re agreeing with me, no?</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2430</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2430</guid>
		<description>No argument that it goes both ways. The question is how do we fix it? When someone obviously does not know the law, like the inciting the riot example, do we blacklist them until they pass a HCDAO penal code test? What about the officers disciplined for untruthfulness? Are they still allowed to file? If you don&#039;t know the law, or are untruthful, how do you get over the &quot;credible and reliable&quot; hump?

I&#039;ve seen the guys you talk about on the stand. Its embarassing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No argument that it goes both ways. The question is how do we fix it? When someone obviously does not know the law, like the inciting the riot example, do we blacklist them until they pass a HCDAO penal code test? What about the officers disciplined for untruthfulness? Are they still allowed to file? If you don&#8217;t know the law, or are untruthful, how do you get over the &#8220;credible and reliable&#8221; hump?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen the guys you talk about on the stand. Its embarassing.</p>
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		<title>By: sctexas</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2398</link>
		<dc:creator>sctexas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2398</guid>
		<description>Well Jack, surely you know it goes both ways.   A DA at intake the other day fielded a call from a cop who wanted to charege a kid with inciting a riot because he turned off a light in the classroom and the kids got unruly.  The same type of cop is they type who calls intake and wants us to take 4 felonies from a stop where four people in a car have a cold crack pipe under the seat.  Ridculousness knows few bounds.

I have had some HORRIBLE officers on the stand.  Not always rookies, but guys with experience that can&#039;t even remember what they told you five minutes ago, much less what they wrote, incorrectly, in the report.  

That&#039;s the thing about anecdotal evidence--it&#039;s made up of anecdotes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Jack, surely you know it goes both ways.   A DA at intake the other day fielded a call from a cop who wanted to charege a kid with inciting a riot because he turned off a light in the classroom and the kids got unruly.  The same type of cop is they type who calls intake and wants us to take 4 felonies from a stop where four people in a car have a cold crack pipe under the seat.  Ridculousness knows few bounds.</p>
<p>I have had some HORRIBLE officers on the stand.  Not always rookies, but guys with experience that can&#8217;t even remember what they told you five minutes ago, much less what they wrote, incorrectly, in the report.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s the thing about anecdotal evidence&#8211;it&#8217;s made up of anecdotes.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2397</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2397</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been amused at reading the comments from HCDAO prosecutors about what great lawyers they are. But that&#039;s because as a peace officer, I&#039;ve had to explain the elements of the offense to them at intake. I&#039;ve had pre-trial conferences on first degree felonies that only consisted of the prosecutor saying &quot;make sure you read your report.&quot; I&#039;ve been in trial where the prosecutor failed to call important witnesses and then wondered why he lost. 

I know they have a big case load, but they always have. The difference is the people over there now. I can remember 20 years ago when you often received calls at home on Saturday and Sunday from real prosecutors who were preparing for upcoming trials. But except for a handful, those folks are long gone. They were the same people that knew what a case was worth, and didn&#039;t make an outrageous offer just to force someone to trial. 

And, I&#039;ve also been at bench trials before a visiting judge where you knew the fix was in. The prosecutor had no problem tanking the case because it had been decided that some connected person wasn&#039;t DWI after all.

Don&#039;t get me wrong, they got some damn good lawyers over there, the true believers as you say. But a lot of them would be quite surprised if they went up against a competent defense attorney before an intellectually honest judge.

And for that matter, a lot of peace officers would be surprised if they did too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been amused at reading the comments from HCDAO prosecutors about what great lawyers they are. But that&#8217;s because as a peace officer, I&#8217;ve had to explain the elements of the offense to them at intake. I&#8217;ve had pre-trial conferences on first degree felonies that only consisted of the prosecutor saying &#8220;make sure you read your report.&#8221; I&#8217;ve been in trial where the prosecutor failed to call important witnesses and then wondered why he lost. </p>
<p>I know they have a big case load, but they always have. The difference is the people over there now. I can remember 20 years ago when you often received calls at home on Saturday and Sunday from real prosecutors who were preparing for upcoming trials. But except for a handful, those folks are long gone. They were the same people that knew what a case was worth, and didn&#8217;t make an outrageous offer just to force someone to trial. </p>
<p>And, I&#8217;ve also been at bench trials before a visiting judge where you knew the fix was in. The prosecutor had no problem tanking the case because it had been decided that some connected person wasn&#8217;t DWI after all.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, they got some damn good lawyers over there, the true believers as you say. But a lot of them would be quite surprised if they went up against a competent defense attorney before an intellectually honest judge.</p>
<p>And for that matter, a lot of peace officers would be surprised if they did too.</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2385</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2385</guid>
		<description>pro.victims,

Kelly&#039;s husband is a physician.  I doubt her working as a lawyer will be necessary to keep her kids fed as you suggest.  I swear, the histrionics are almost unbearable at times.  This is the kind of thing Mark is referring to when he talks about the lack of perspective many ADA&#039;s have.  Might Kelly have some decisions to make that may impact on her family?  Sure.  But the Siegler family is not in any real peril.  Plenty of other working poor families are, though, which pushes your statement from ridiculous to just plain insensitive and offensive.

And, because I can&#039;t resist, it isn&#039;t difficult for the State to win criminal cases when you have a third chair prosecutor sitting on the bench as we have had in Harris County for far too long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pro.victims,</p>
<p>Kelly&#8217;s husband is a physician.  I doubt her working as a lawyer will be necessary to keep her kids fed as you suggest.  I swear, the histrionics are almost unbearable at times.  This is the kind of thing Mark is referring to when he talks about the lack of perspective many ADA&#8217;s have.  Might Kelly have some decisions to make that may impact on her family?  Sure.  But the Siegler family is not in any real peril.  Plenty of other working poor families are, though, which pushes your statement from ridiculous to just plain insensitive and offensive.</p>
<p>And, because I can&#8217;t resist, it isn&#8217;t difficult for the State to win criminal cases when you have a third chair prosecutor sitting on the bench as we have had in Harris County for far too long.</p>
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		<title>By: Pam</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2379</link>
		<dc:creator>Pam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2379</guid>
		<description>As a former prosecutor, twice, once in litigation and once in appeals, I absolutely agree with you.
The first time I left the District Attorney&#039;s office I was so seeped in &quot;prosecutor vision&quot; I often looked at a case and saw the prosecutorial strengths. I often missed the weaknesses. I was in a jurisdiction with a well deserved reputation for usually being fair and reasonable and that lulled me and others into a false sense that our clients were usually getting a fair deal. 

After the second time, I was in a jurisdiction that is notorious for its overzealousness, unreasonable indictment policeis,and ridiculous plea offers.

I am now referred to as &quot;true beliver&quot; on the defense side and I suspect that is true. One thing I did was join defense groups, go to defense cle and hit the books. It is the most rewarding time of my legal career although I did enjoy prosecution.

Many clients have told me they want a former prosecutor because they think you will know &quot;the ins and outs&quot; and are better able to get a better deal. My first response it to tell them that there are indeed others who may be able to get them a better deal and if that is what they want they may want to consult someone else. I will even give them names of those who I know are capable of getting much better plea offers than most of us in this jurisdiction.

I tell them that a real defense attorney is a better choice - one who does not see the State as all knowing and all powerful. That defense attorney may be a former prosecutor but that credential does not gusrantee compassionate, quality representation.
 
I have seen some prosecutors come out of the district attorney&#039;s office and hit the ground running as a wonderful defense attorney. That is rare. I certainly was not one of them. I needed more than just my prosectorial expertise to become a real defense attorney. I am still working on it and will for the rest of my time practicing law. 

One advantage I had was originally being in a prosecutor&#039;s offfice where the elected DA, who is still there after 30 years, told me the day he hired me that prosecutors and defense attorneys were not enemies. We were all professionals, officers of the court who had jobs to do and that anyone who did not do that job with zeal and passion needed to be doing something else.

It took me a long time to really understand that-for awhile I couldn&#039;t imagine why anyone would not be a prosecutor - after all we were the good guys! I have been blessed with the kindness of many who helped me learn that viewing any situation  as a dichomity, especially one involving human beings, was a sure fire way to stunt my growth as a person and my development as a quality lawyer. 

Keep up the good work you do with your blog. While I do not always agree with you, I find you make me think, you challenge me and I am better for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former prosecutor, twice, once in litigation and once in appeals, I absolutely agree with you.<br />
The first time I left the District Attorney&#8217;s office I was so seeped in &#8220;prosecutor vision&#8221; I often looked at a case and saw the prosecutorial strengths. I often missed the weaknesses. I was in a jurisdiction with a well deserved reputation for usually being fair and reasonable and that lulled me and others into a false sense that our clients were usually getting a fair deal. </p>
<p>After the second time, I was in a jurisdiction that is notorious for its overzealousness, unreasonable indictment policeis,and ridiculous plea offers.</p>
<p>I am now referred to as &#8220;true beliver&#8221; on the defense side and I suspect that is true. One thing I did was join defense groups, go to defense cle and hit the books. It is the most rewarding time of my legal career although I did enjoy prosecution.</p>
<p>Many clients have told me they want a former prosecutor because they think you will know &#8220;the ins and outs&#8221; and are better able to get a better deal. My first response it to tell them that there are indeed others who may be able to get them a better deal and if that is what they want they may want to consult someone else. I will even give them names of those who I know are capable of getting much better plea offers than most of us in this jurisdiction.</p>
<p>I tell them that a real defense attorney is a better choice &#8211; one who does not see the State as all knowing and all powerful. That defense attorney may be a former prosecutor but that credential does not gusrantee compassionate, quality representation.</p>
<p>I have seen some prosecutors come out of the district attorney&#8217;s office and hit the ground running as a wonderful defense attorney. That is rare. I certainly was not one of them. I needed more than just my prosectorial expertise to become a real defense attorney. I am still working on it and will for the rest of my time practicing law. </p>
<p>One advantage I had was originally being in a prosecutor&#8217;s offfice where the elected DA, who is still there after 30 years, told me the day he hired me that prosecutors and defense attorneys were not enemies. We were all professionals, officers of the court who had jobs to do and that anyone who did not do that job with zeal and passion needed to be doing something else.</p>
<p>It took me a long time to really understand that-for awhile I couldn&#8217;t imagine why anyone would not be a prosecutor &#8211; after all we were the good guys! I have been blessed with the kindness of many who helped me learn that viewing any situation  as a dichomity, especially one involving human beings, was a sure fire way to stunt my growth as a person and my development as a quality lawyer. </p>
<p>Keep up the good work you do with your blog. While I do not always agree with you, I find you make me think, you challenge me and I am better for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron in Houston</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-2372</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron in Houston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/04/former-prosecutors-iii-a-specific-case.html#comment-2372</guid>
		<description>There are a lot of really great lawyers.  If I&#039;m a client I want someone that cares about me and sees me as a human being and not as some incremental source of revenue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a lot of really great lawyers.  If I&#8217;m a client I want someone that cares about me and sees me as a human being and not as some incremental source of revenue.</p>
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