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	<title>Comments on: The Client&#8217;s Decisions, the Lawyer&#8217;s, and Chastisement to Insolent Pups</title>
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	<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html</link>
	<description>the tao of criminal defense trial lawyering</description>
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		<title>By: El Cucuy de la Corte</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4302</link>
		<dc:creator>El Cucuy de la Corte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4302</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve had prosecutors be snippy or rude on a given occasion, and later found them to be pleasant and professional.  ADA&#039;s have a tough job, and we all have bad days, sometimes following bad nights.  Everybody is entitled to a little slack every now and then, unless that person&#039;s behavior is outright inexcusable.  Oh, and shouldn&#039;t those dogs be called &quot;Zimbabwean Ridgebacks?&quot;  After all, Rhodesia is so 1970&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve had prosecutors be snippy or rude on a given occasion, and later found them to be pleasant and professional.  ADA&#8217;s have a tough job, and we all have bad days, sometimes following bad nights.  Everybody is entitled to a little slack every now and then, unless that person&#8217;s behavior is outright inexcusable.  Oh, and shouldn&#8217;t those dogs be called &#8220;Zimbabwean Ridgebacks?&#8221;  After all, Rhodesia is so 1970&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: AHCL</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4299</link>
		<dc:creator>AHCL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4299</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a big fan of rudeness on any level, but I will freely acknowledge that plenty of prosecutors are downright rude to the Defense Bar.  But, in all fairness, some members of the Defense Bar are downright rude to prosecutors.  And that is often the case when the defense bar is dealing with Newbie Misdemeanor Threes.

The Misdemeanor Three is the Rodney Dangerfield of the D.A.&#039;s Office, because they get no respect.  Not from their chiefs, not from their investigators, not from their judge, and certainly not from the defense bar.  They &quot;bow up&quot; as a defense mechanism, and they are often demeaned in court unfairly, because they are usually just kids trying learn the job, for crying out loud.

I don&#039;t think any Seasoned Defense Attorney should make a permanent decision about a prosecutor based on the way they handled themselves as a Misdemeanor Three.  I know I had some moments that I wasn&#039;t exactly proud of back then.  Being a prosecutor is a job you ultimately have to grow into.

And also, don&#039;t fault a Misdemeanor Three for failing to distance himself or herself from her Chief.  The Chief is their boss, for crying out loud.  You aren&#039;t going to find too many baby prosecutors having a Stand and Deliver moment on the first month they work there.

I do love the last three paragraphs of your post, Mark.  It is especially entertaining if you imagine Don Corleone&#039;s voice reciting it.  Baby Prosecutors beware!  Respect the Defense Bar, or you will sleep with the fishes!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a big fan of rudeness on any level, but I will freely acknowledge that plenty of prosecutors are downright rude to the Defense Bar.  But, in all fairness, some members of the Defense Bar are downright rude to prosecutors.  And that is often the case when the defense bar is dealing with Newbie Misdemeanor Threes.</p>
<p>The Misdemeanor Three is the Rodney Dangerfield of the D.A.&#8217;s Office, because they get no respect.  Not from their chiefs, not from their investigators, not from their judge, and certainly not from the defense bar.  They &#8220;bow up&#8221; as a defense mechanism, and they are often demeaned in court unfairly, because they are usually just kids trying learn the job, for crying out loud.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think any Seasoned Defense Attorney should make a permanent decision about a prosecutor based on the way they handled themselves as a Misdemeanor Three.  I know I had some moments that I wasn&#8217;t exactly proud of back then.  Being a prosecutor is a job you ultimately have to grow into.</p>
<p>And also, don&#8217;t fault a Misdemeanor Three for failing to distance himself or herself from her Chief.  The Chief is their boss, for crying out loud.  You aren&#8217;t going to find too many baby prosecutors having a Stand and Deliver moment on the first month they work there.</p>
<p>I do love the last three paragraphs of your post, Mark.  It is especially entertaining if you imagine Don Corleone&#8217;s voice reciting it.  Baby Prosecutors beware!  Respect the Defense Bar, or you will sleep with the fishes!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4290</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4290</guid>
		<description>As a matter of doctrine, I would say that the decision of whether to drag the mistress in to testify is the lawyer&#039;s, rather than the client&#039;s. The choice is not &quot;do it my way or plead&quot; but &quot;do it my way or hire someone who will do it your way.&quot; If you&#039;ve hired me to fight your way out of trouble, don&#039;t go tying my hands behind my back.

I&#039;m not entirely comfortable with that position, though. This is a customer-service business, and if calling the mistress to testify is going to prang the rest of the client&#039;s life, what business do I have deciding that a better shot at a favorable verdict is more important than whatever interest the client is trying to protect?

I guess the possible impediments to a zealous defense are something that, ideally, the client and the lawyer would discuss before hiring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a matter of doctrine, I would say that the decision of whether to drag the mistress in to testify is the lawyer&#8217;s, rather than the client&#8217;s. The choice is not &#8220;do it my way or plead&#8221; but &#8220;do it my way or hire someone who will do it your way.&#8221; If you&#8217;ve hired me to fight your way out of trouble, don&#8217;t go tying my hands behind my back.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not entirely comfortable with that position, though. This is a customer-service business, and if calling the mistress to testify is going to prang the rest of the client&#8217;s life, what business do I have deciding that a better shot at a favorable verdict is more important than whatever interest the client is trying to protect?</p>
<p>I guess the possible impediments to a zealous defense are something that, ideally, the client and the lawyer would discuss before hiring.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill M</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4289</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4289</guid>
		<description>I take your point, and I was uncomfortable with my phrasing, but the client&#039;s class of decisions is very hard to classify.  Goals are clearly part of the issue, since the client must have sole control of those.  

Another element seems to link to basic rights.  Even if you as the lawyer tell your client the case is a guaranteed loser, he can tell you to take it to trial.  Not because he might win (though of course he might), but because he has the right to his day in court.  Same with the right to testify or refuse.  And this covers the Judge v. Jury trial and sentencing decisions: the client has the right to be heard by his peers instead of being judged by the wisdom of the state.

But I wonder if your list is really comprehensive, and if there are other elements.  I can imagine situations where dragging a clients spouse into testifying (or, perhaps, bringing in the mistress to testify) might help the client&#039;s chances, but the client might find it too painful to bear.  Would the client then have the right to order you to limit your witness list, or would he be left with the decision of &quot;do it your way&quot; or &quot;take a plea&quot;?  And does this question loop back to the question of goals (which go beyond the obvious question of punishment v. exhoneration to something much deeper), or does it lead to another element of the client&#039;s &quot;territory,&quot; something more akin to dignity?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take your point, and I was uncomfortable with my phrasing, but the client&#8217;s class of decisions is very hard to classify.  Goals are clearly part of the issue, since the client must have sole control of those.  </p>
<p>Another element seems to link to basic rights.  Even if you as the lawyer tell your client the case is a guaranteed loser, he can tell you to take it to trial.  Not because he might win (though of course he might), but because he has the right to his day in court.  Same with the right to testify or refuse.  And this covers the Judge v. Jury trial and sentencing decisions: the client has the right to be heard by his peers instead of being judged by the wisdom of the state.</p>
<p>But I wonder if your list is really comprehensive, and if there are other elements.  I can imagine situations where dragging a clients spouse into testifying (or, perhaps, bringing in the mistress to testify) might help the client&#8217;s chances, but the client might find it too painful to bear.  Would the client then have the right to order you to limit your witness list, or would he be left with the decision of &#8220;do it your way&#8221; or &#8220;take a plea&#8221;?  And does this question loop back to the question of goals (which go beyond the obvious question of punishment v. exhoneration to something much deeper), or does it lead to another element of the client&#8217;s &#8220;territory,&#8221; something more akin to dignity?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4288</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4288</guid>
		<description>Bill M,

I am trying to figure out a way to describe how client decisions differ from lawyer decisions. &quot;Final goals rather than methods&quot; seems reasonable, but it doesn&#039;t do it because #s 2, 4, and 5 (and often #1) involve methods rather than final goals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill M,</p>
<p>I am trying to figure out a way to describe how client decisions differ from lawyer decisions. &#8220;Final goals rather than methods&#8221; seems reasonable, but it doesn&#8217;t do it because #s 2, 4, and 5 (and often #1) involve methods rather than final goals.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill M</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4287</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4287</guid>
		<description>#3 is massively important for the client, since it involve such a personal decision.  The client needs to look inside himself and decide if he can really meet the conditions of probation.  Otherwise, he&#039;s just helping the state set him up for an even bigger fall.  #3 is not a decision an attorney can make for his client either legally (since it involves the final goals, rather than the methods) or intellectually, since it is based on a deep personal evaluation that only the client can make for himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#3 is massively important for the client, since it involve such a personal decision.  The client needs to look inside himself and decide if he can really meet the conditions of probation.  Otherwise, he&#8217;s just helping the state set him up for an even bigger fall.  #3 is not a decision an attorney can make for his client either legally (since it involves the final goals, rather than the methods) or intellectually, since it is based on a deep personal evaluation that only the client can make for himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Tarian</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4286</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4286</guid>
		<description>I always found dogsh*t works best for flies, but I was talking about bees...as long as it&#039;s not an angry swarm.  Where was this analogy supposed to be going?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always found dogsh*t works best for flies, but I was talking about bees&#8230;as long as it&#8217;s not an angry swarm.  Where was this analogy supposed to be going?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4285</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4285</guid>
		<description>Sure, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but if (for some reason) you really want to catch flies your best bet is a dead squirrel.

I think #3 is much more likely to arise in a misdemeanor case. When the conditions of probation will be more onerous to the accused than the jail time that it appears a jury will likely assess, the otherwise probation-eligible accused might elect not to file an application for probation.

I don&#039;t think the DRs say anywhere that this is the client&#039;s decision, but it seems to me logically to fall within the class of decisions that the accused should make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but if (for some reason) you really want to catch flies your best bet is a dead squirrel.</p>
<p>I think #3 is much more likely to arise in a misdemeanor case. When the conditions of probation will be more onerous to the accused than the jail time that it appears a jury will likely assess, the otherwise probation-eligible accused might elect not to file an application for probation.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the DRs say anywhere that this is the client&#8217;s decision, but it seems to me logically to fall within the class of decisions that the accused should make.</p>
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		<title>By: Tarian</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4284</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4284</guid>
		<description>Is No. 3 a misdemeanor-specific decision?  Still wondering...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is No. 3 a misdemeanor-specific decision?  Still wondering&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html/comment-page-1#comment-4283</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2008/07/the-clients-decisions-the-lawyers-and-chastisement-to-insolent-pups.html#comment-4283</guid>
		<description>I am ashamed to admit that I didn&#039;t know that one of the clients choices was whether or not to argue for probation after a conviction.... good to know. Though I bet I am not alone. I bet many defense attorneys don&#039;t know that either.

But Mark, a great post.  And true as well. As a misdemeanor newbee I had an awful misdemeanor chief that I had to distance myself from. But since she was yelling at me in open court, I think it was fairly obvious where I stood. 

And Ooo, I hate the NLS&#039;s...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am ashamed to admit that I didn&#8217;t know that one of the clients choices was whether or not to argue for probation after a conviction&#8230;. good to know. Though I bet I am not alone. I bet many defense attorneys don&#8217;t know that either.</p>
<p>But Mark, a great post.  And true as well. As a misdemeanor newbee I had an awful misdemeanor chief that I had to distance myself from. But since she was yelling at me in open court, I think it was fairly obvious where I stood. </p>
<p>And Ooo, I hate the NLS&#8217;s&#8230;</p>
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