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	<title>Comments on: Justice vs. The Law</title>
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	<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html</link>
	<description>the tao of criminal defense trial lawyering</description>
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		<title>By: John Kindley</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9260</link>
		<dc:creator>John Kindley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9260</guid>
		<description>Uh, no, I wouldn&#039;t mind if you included &quot;my&quot; motto in your book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh, no, I wouldn&#8217;t mind if you included &#8220;my&#8221; motto in your book.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas R. Griffith (The Griffith Files - 1984 &#38; Beyond)</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9258</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas R. Griffith (The Griffith Files - 1984 &#38; Beyond)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:30:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9258</guid>
		<description>Mr. K., Love your Motto.  Would you mind if I included your motto in the book The Griffith Files (1984 &amp; Beyond) ?

It really should be the very first words to be put on the blackboard on the first day of Law School.  Then of course I would love to see my personal moto tatooed on the back of the graduating classes hands, &quot;NoMoreNoloContendere&quot;    Defend Em All &amp; That&#039;s That.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. K., Love your Motto.  Would you mind if I included your motto in the book The Griffith Files (1984 &amp; Beyond) ?</p>
<p>It really should be the very first words to be put on the blackboard on the first day of Law School.  Then of course I would love to see my personal moto tatooed on the back of the graduating classes hands, &#8220;NoMoreNoloContendere&#8221;    Defend Em All &amp; That&#8217;s That.</p>
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		<title>By: John Kindley</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9253</link>
		<dc:creator>John Kindley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9253</guid>
		<description>Defend &#039;Em All, Let God Sort &#039;Em Out!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Defend &#8216;Em All, Let God Sort &#8216;Em Out!</p>
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		<title>By: shg</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9252</link>
		<dc:creator>shg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9252</guid>
		<description>On the defense side of the equation, two groups co-existent.  They tend to share similar sensibilities, and often agree.  But there is a fundamental difference, which I believe to be Mark&#039;s point in parsing Ryan&#039;s critique of Mark&#039;s assertion that justice and law are wholly different concepts.  I note in passing that I agree with Mark.

Philosophers can ponder &quot;justice&quot;.  Lawyers are the mechanics who try to make the system of &quot;justice&quot; work.  Justice in the first sentence is a concept.  In the second sentence, it&#039;s just a nice word that appeals to people and makes them feel better about a less-than-perfect system.  From the systemic perspective, there is no, and can be no, &quot;justice&quot; since each of us applies an entirely different measure.  Justice to the victim and justice to the defendant rarely, if ever, align.  That we pretend that there is some objective notion of justice is foolish.

For someone like Ryan, a member of that group on the defense side of the equation with sensibilities similar to those of criminal defense lawyers, the elevation of conceptual justice to a place where it should be coextensive with law is where the two groups part ways.  Ryan is involved with the Innocence Project of Florida.  Criminal defense lawyers are part of the Innocence and Guilty Project of Wherever they Happen to Be.  We are not concerned solely with seeking Justice for innocent people.  We defend the innocent and guilty alike.

So, if there is such a thing as justice, that would make us the champions of injustice.  We don&#039;t promote this, because it would make us even more hated than we are now, but it&#039;s where criminal defense lawyers and those who think like Ryan part company.  

If there is a fault to Mark&#039;s post, it&#039;s that he speaks an unpleasant truth, a truth that even our friends don&#039;t like to hear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the defense side of the equation, two groups co-existent.  They tend to share similar sensibilities, and often agree.  But there is a fundamental difference, which I believe to be Mark&#8217;s point in parsing Ryan&#8217;s critique of Mark&#8217;s assertion that justice and law are wholly different concepts.  I note in passing that I agree with Mark.</p>
<p>Philosophers can ponder &#8220;justice&#8221;.  Lawyers are the mechanics who try to make the system of &#8220;justice&#8221; work.  Justice in the first sentence is a concept.  In the second sentence, it&#8217;s just a nice word that appeals to people and makes them feel better about a less-than-perfect system.  From the systemic perspective, there is no, and can be no, &#8220;justice&#8221; since each of us applies an entirely different measure.  Justice to the victim and justice to the defendant rarely, if ever, align.  That we pretend that there is some objective notion of justice is foolish.</p>
<p>For someone like Ryan, a member of that group on the defense side of the equation with sensibilities similar to those of criminal defense lawyers, the elevation of conceptual justice to a place where it should be coextensive with law is where the two groups part ways.  Ryan is involved with the Innocence Project of Florida.  Criminal defense lawyers are part of the Innocence and Guilty Project of Wherever they Happen to Be.  We are not concerned solely with seeking Justice for innocent people.  We defend the innocent and guilty alike.</p>
<p>So, if there is such a thing as justice, that would make us the champions of injustice.  We don&#8217;t promote this, because it would make us even more hated than we are now, but it&#8217;s where criminal defense lawyers and those who think like Ryan part company.  </p>
<p>If there is a fault to Mark&#8217;s post, it&#8217;s that he speaks an unpleasant truth, a truth that even our friends don&#8217;t like to hear.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9238</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9238</guid>
		<description>Astronomers practice their science with an understanding of the limits both of their instruments and of their technique. They make no unfounded claims.

Astrologers, by contrast, practice their art in the hopes of doing something that is, if not impossible, then at least far beyond the science of the day. (As do lawyers who think the criminal justice system actually produces justice, except by accident. I hate to have to explain the metaphor, but I&#039;ve discovered that blogging with open comments, and trying to anticipate all of the ways that commenters can misunderstand so that I am not pecked to death by ducks, is writing for the least common denominator.)

Either that or they are perpetrating a fraud on suckers. 

There are people (practitioners and suckers both) who earnestly believe that astrology leads to its intended end. It generally doesn&#039;t or can&#039;t be proven to.

Sometimes, however, astrologers, by sheer coincidence, get it right. 

Maybe the criminal justice system should come with a label: &quot;for entertainment purposes only.&quot;
&lt;hr/&gt;
The premise that politicians act to get reelected was Ryan&#039;s, not mine. It was offered by him in support of a connection between law and justice. Take it up with him if you don&#039;t like it.
&lt;hr/&gt;
Again with &quot;considerably&quot;? It was an error, which I&#039;d acknowledged. There are going to be more such errors in the next few days, since I&#039;m using an old (eight years!) computer that is mysteriously slow in accepting text input in a web browser. Would you rather I&#039;d edited it after JGL pointed it out?
&lt;hr/&gt;
It&#039;s interesting that those who are vocally critical of my reaction to Ryan&#039;s piece are those who are reluctant either to contribute to the substantive discussion or publicly to take ownership of their own opinions by signing their actual names.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Astronomers practice their science with an understanding of the limits both of their instruments and of their technique. They make no unfounded claims.</p>
<p>Astrologers, by contrast, practice their art in the hopes of doing something that is, if not impossible, then at least far beyond the science of the day. (As do lawyers who think the criminal justice system actually produces justice, except by accident. I hate to have to explain the metaphor, but I&#8217;ve discovered that blogging with open comments, and trying to anticipate all of the ways that commenters can misunderstand so that I am not pecked to death by ducks, is writing for the least common denominator.)</p>
<p>Either that or they are perpetrating a fraud on suckers. </p>
<p>There are people (practitioners and suckers both) who earnestly believe that astrology leads to its intended end. It generally doesn&#8217;t or can&#8217;t be proven to.</p>
<p>Sometimes, however, astrologers, by sheer coincidence, get it right. </p>
<p>Maybe the criminal justice system should come with a label: &#8220;for entertainment purposes only.&#8221;</p>
<hr />
The premise that politicians act to get reelected was Ryan&#8217;s, not mine. It was offered by him in support of a connection between law and justice. Take it up with him if you don&#8217;t like it.</p>
<hr />
Again with &#8220;considerably&#8221;? It was an error, which I&#8217;d acknowledged. There are going to be more such errors in the next few days, since I&#8217;m using an old (eight years!) computer that is mysteriously slow in accepting text input in a web browser. Would you rather I&#8217;d edited it after JGL pointed it out?</p>
<hr />
It&#8217;s interesting that those who are vocally critical of my reaction to Ryan&#8217;s piece are those who are reluctant either to contribute to the substantive discussion or publicly to take ownership of their own opinions by signing their actual names.</p>
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		<title>By: Clay S. Conrad</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9236</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay S. Conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9236</guid>
		<description>When in doubt, turn to Ambrose Bierce&#039;s superlative Devil&#039;s Dictionary.  I don&#039;t know if he defined justice, but he did define injustice as &quot;that burden which, though lightest in the hands, is heaviest on the back.&quot;  

Thus, while we do not think much about &quot;justice,&quot; as a people, we often think about injustice, but only when it falls upon our own backs.  When we inflict it, we tend to do so cavalierly.  

Justice, indeed, is a hard topic to explain, again paraphrasing Bierce, as naturalists have yet to find an intact specimen to examine.  INjustice, however, is much easier to define, as we find intact speciments of that daily.  The best definition of justice I can find, then, is the opposite of injustice -- and injustice tends to strike us viscerally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When in doubt, turn to Ambrose Bierce&#8217;s superlative Devil&#8217;s Dictionary.  I don&#8217;t know if he defined justice, but he did define injustice as &#8220;that burden which, though lightest in the hands, is heaviest on the back.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Thus, while we do not think much about &#8220;justice,&#8221; as a people, we often think about injustice, but only when it falls upon our own backs.  When we inflict it, we tend to do so cavalierly.  </p>
<p>Justice, indeed, is a hard topic to explain, again paraphrasing Bierce, as naturalists have yet to find an intact specimen to examine.  INjustice, however, is much easier to define, as we find intact speciments of that daily.  The best definition of justice I can find, then, is the opposite of injustice &#8212; and injustice tends to strike us viscerally.</p>
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		<title>By: Tarian</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9234</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9234</guid>
		<description>Oh, and one more thing:  Khan is the one who put Kirk in the decompression chamber.  Kant is the one who woke up after an extended period of suspended animation, surfed the internet, read a bunch of blogs by people who didn&#039;t understand him, and promptly drowned himself in the Danube out of despair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and one more thing:  Khan is the one who put Kirk in the decompression chamber.  Kant is the one who woke up after an extended period of suspended animation, surfed the internet, read a bunch of blogs by people who didn&#8217;t understand him, and promptly drowned himself in the Danube out of despair.</p>
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		<title>By: Tarian</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9233</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9233</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a little hard to believe you&#039;re devoting this much energy to defending what was, essentially, an attempt at cynical humor.  The original definition you gave was deliberately over-simplified to make an ironic point.  Do you seriously believe that EVERY politician enacts EVERY law SOLELY for the purpose of getting re-elected?  If so, maybe we need to start awarding honorary PhDs in Over-Generalization.  So you take this horse which was, if not dead upon arrival, at the very least lying on its side whinnying its last breath, and try to ride it for some more chuckles.  Fine.  We get it.  There is often no relation between law and justice.  

But then poor Ryan comes in and actually attempts to fashion a more accurate statement out of your not-so bon mot, and you, for lack of a more refined description, jump his shit.  Great job, Mark!  Congrats on pointing out the flaws in his efforts while not acknowledging the inherent ridiculousness of the original assertion.  I&#039;m sure it makes him feel better for posting that you &quot;excercised considerably (sic?) restraint.&quot;  Get off your high horse -- oh, wait, as we&#039;ve already established, that horse is dead!  How about finding another and riding it with a bit more humility?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a little hard to believe you&#8217;re devoting this much energy to defending what was, essentially, an attempt at cynical humor.  The original definition you gave was deliberately over-simplified to make an ironic point.  Do you seriously believe that EVERY politician enacts EVERY law SOLELY for the purpose of getting re-elected?  If so, maybe we need to start awarding honorary PhDs in Over-Generalization.  So you take this horse which was, if not dead upon arrival, at the very least lying on its side whinnying its last breath, and try to ride it for some more chuckles.  Fine.  We get it.  There is often no relation between law and justice.  </p>
<p>But then poor Ryan comes in and actually attempts to fashion a more accurate statement out of your not-so bon mot, and you, for lack of a more refined description, jump his shit.  Great job, Mark!  Congrats on pointing out the flaws in his efforts while not acknowledging the inherent ridiculousness of the original assertion.  I&#8217;m sure it makes him feel better for posting that you &#8220;excercised considerably (sic?) restraint.&#8221;  Get off your high horse &#8212; oh, wait, as we&#8217;ve already established, that horse is dead!  How about finding another and riding it with a bit more humility?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9226</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9226</guid>
		<description>. . . proving that nothing is inarguable.

Nobody said that politicians &lt;i&gt;always&lt;/i&gt; act in ways they believe will get them elected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>. . . proving that nothing is inarguable.</p>
<p>Nobody said that politicians <i>always</i> act in ways they believe will get them elected.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Gamso</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/justice-vs-the-law.html/comment-page-1#comment-9224</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Gamso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 02:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-9224</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t doubt that some people may deserve to die (though I don&#039;t know how we can, with any certainty, identify them). 

I do doubt that we deserve to kill them.

Add all that together, and I reject the death penalty absolutely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t doubt that some people may deserve to die (though I don&#8217;t know how we can, with any certainty, identify them). </p>
<p>I do doubt that we deserve to kill them.</p>
<p>Add all that together, and I reject the death penalty absolutely.</p>
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