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	<title>Comments on: Law and Justice Explained.</title>
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	<description>the tao of criminal defense trial lawyering</description>
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		<title>By: Law v Justice &#124; Solicitr</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9255</link>
		<dc:creator>Law v Justice &#124; Solicitr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 08:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9255</guid>
		<description>[...] on criminal defence lawyering, and it&#8217;s not even that abusive, from Defending People - &quot;Law and Justice Explained &quot;&#8230; &quot;One of the most annoying things about lawyers is the way they casually conflate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on criminal defence lawyering, and it&#8217;s not even that abusive, from Defending People &#8211; &quot;Law and Justice Explained &quot;&#8230; &quot;One of the most annoying things about lawyers is the way they casually conflate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Where I got the name for this blog &#124; People v. State</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9245</link>
		<dc:creator>Where I got the name for this blog &#124; People v. State</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9245</guid>
		<description>[...] Today I randomly encountered online another inspiration for People v. State, in this comment thread on Mark Bennett&#8217;s Defending People blog. Here&#8217;s the exchange: John Kindley says: 26 June 2009 at 12:51 pm [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Today I randomly encountered online another inspiration for People v. State, in this comment thread on Mark Bennett&#8217;s Defending People blog. Here&#8217;s the exchange: John Kindley says: 26 June 2009 at 12:51 pm [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Kindley</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9244</link>
		<dc:creator>John Kindley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9244</guid>
		<description>Clay,

I thought your name sounded familiar, and then I realized you are the author of a book on my office bookshelf on jury nullification / independence. In fact, the reason I bought the book was because it was highly recommended as the best on the subject by Randy Barnett in a blog post at Volokh Conspiracy. No wonder you are a big fan of Spooner, as he wrote the classic book on the subject, Trial By Jury. The name of my blog, People v. State, was inspired in part by the paragraph on pages 280-281 of your book, where you discuss opening statement. For the benefit of others, here&#039;s what you wrote there: 

&quot;Prosecuting attorneys almost always try to connect with the jury by claiming to represent &#039;the people of&#039; the United States, or the state. One rarely used technique is for counsel to object, in front of the jury, to the prosecutor claiming to represent &#039;the people.&#039; Objecting that the prosecutor represents the government, and that the jury represents &#039;the people&#039; achieves several objectives -- it shows the jurors that the prosecution is posturing and attempting to manipulate them, and it shows them that they have an independent role to play which the prosecution is attempting to usurp. The judge will almost never grant this objection in any case, and may well chastise the attorney bold enough to make it, but in front of an appropriate jury that posture may well cost the judge credibility as well. This technique can be reinforced by being sure to refer to the prosecutor either as the &#039;prosecutor&#039; or as the &#039;government&#039; throughout the trial, and never as the &#039;state&#039; or &#039;the people.&#039;&quot;

Small world. Honored to &quot;meet&quot; you.

I&#039;ve read Barnett&#039;s book Restoring the Lost Constitution, and although the prospect for the restoration he outlines is indeed dismal given present political realities and public opinion, I found the book itself very persuasive and on the money. It makes room for the arbitrary but apparently necessary lines and definitions you refer to. If such arbitrary lines are indeed necessary, they can nevertheless be justified only by natural law and natural justice and nothing else. What is truly necessary is presumably just. Even if the State&#039;s claims to legitimacy (e.g., on the theory of &quot;consent of the governed&quot;) are completely unfounded, we are not really harmed when we are prevented by the government from doing something we have no natural right to do anyway.

Speaking of small worlds, I have recently come across another professor at Georgetown (where Barnett is also a professor) whose thinking has illuminated and supplemented my Spoonerite worldview: &lt;a href=&quot;http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/TP3.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;John Hasnas&lt;/a&gt;. I especially found his article titled &quot;The Depoliticization of Law&quot; helpful to the questions presented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clay,</p>
<p>I thought your name sounded familiar, and then I realized you are the author of a book on my office bookshelf on jury nullification / independence. In fact, the reason I bought the book was because it was highly recommended as the best on the subject by Randy Barnett in a blog post at Volokh Conspiracy. No wonder you are a big fan of Spooner, as he wrote the classic book on the subject, Trial By Jury. The name of my blog, People v. State, was inspired in part by the paragraph on pages 280-281 of your book, where you discuss opening statement. For the benefit of others, here&#8217;s what you wrote there: </p>
<p>&#8220;Prosecuting attorneys almost always try to connect with the jury by claiming to represent &#8216;the people of&#8217; the United States, or the state. One rarely used technique is for counsel to object, in front of the jury, to the prosecutor claiming to represent &#8216;the people.&#8217; Objecting that the prosecutor represents the government, and that the jury represents &#8216;the people&#8217; achieves several objectives &#8212; it shows the jurors that the prosecution is posturing and attempting to manipulate them, and it shows them that they have an independent role to play which the prosecution is attempting to usurp. The judge will almost never grant this objection in any case, and may well chastise the attorney bold enough to make it, but in front of an appropriate jury that posture may well cost the judge credibility as well. This technique can be reinforced by being sure to refer to the prosecutor either as the &#8216;prosecutor&#8217; or as the &#8216;government&#8217; throughout the trial, and never as the &#8217;state&#8217; or &#8216;the people.&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>Small world. Honored to &#8220;meet&#8221; you.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read Barnett&#8217;s book Restoring the Lost Constitution, and although the prospect for the restoration he outlines is indeed dismal given present political realities and public opinion, I found the book itself very persuasive and on the money. It makes room for the arbitrary but apparently necessary lines and definitions you refer to. If such arbitrary lines are indeed necessary, they can nevertheless be justified only by natural law and natural justice and nothing else. What is truly necessary is presumably just. Even if the State&#8217;s claims to legitimacy (e.g., on the theory of &#8220;consent of the governed&#8221;) are completely unfounded, we are not really harmed when we are prevented by the government from doing something we have no natural right to do anyway.</p>
<p>Speaking of small worlds, I have recently come across another professor at Georgetown (where Barnett is also a professor) whose thinking has illuminated and supplemented my Spoonerite worldview: <a href="http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/TP3.htm" rel="nofollow">John Hasnas</a>. I especially found his article titled &#8220;The Depoliticization of Law&#8221; helpful to the questions presented.</p>
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		<title>By: Clay S. Conrad</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9237</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay S. Conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9237</guid>
		<description>I am a big fan of Spooner.  I even own (and have read) the Collected Works of Lysander Spooner.

That said, how does natural law tell us which side of the road to drive on?  Shouldn&#039;t it, however, be kept uniform?  How does NatLaw tell us what penalties to attach to crimes?  Why is it that it is illegal to have any sexual contact with a person who is 203 months and 27 days old, yet just fine to have all-out porn star sex with any number of them as soon as they complete their 204th month of life? 

The difficult part of NatLaw, which is why it has fallen into disfavor and ridicule, is that it falls down in application.  At some point, the arbitrary choices have to be made -- imperfectly, of course, as they are arbitrary.  Yet, somewhere, a definition has to be made, and hopefully as close to natural law as possible -- even if, in application, sometimes that is not possible at all.

Randy Barnett has examined alot of these issues, in his book Restoring the Lost Constitution.  If you are really interested in frustration, I highly recommend it.  It is excellent, yet the realities it confronts are somewhat dismal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a big fan of Spooner.  I even own (and have read) the Collected Works of Lysander Spooner.</p>
<p>That said, how does natural law tell us which side of the road to drive on?  Shouldn&#8217;t it, however, be kept uniform?  How does NatLaw tell us what penalties to attach to crimes?  Why is it that it is illegal to have any sexual contact with a person who is 203 months and 27 days old, yet just fine to have all-out porn star sex with any number of them as soon as they complete their 204th month of life? </p>
<p>The difficult part of NatLaw, which is why it has fallen into disfavor and ridicule, is that it falls down in application.  At some point, the arbitrary choices have to be made &#8212; imperfectly, of course, as they are arbitrary.  Yet, somewhere, a definition has to be made, and hopefully as close to natural law as possible &#8212; even if, in application, sometimes that is not possible at all.</p>
<p>Randy Barnett has examined alot of these issues, in his book Restoring the Lost Constitution.  If you are really interested in frustration, I highly recommend it.  It is excellent, yet the realities it confronts are somewhat dismal.</p>
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		<title>By: John Neff</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9225</link>
		<dc:creator>John Neff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9225</guid>
		<description>Bill Cosby once said &quot;Parents are not interested in justice. What they want is quite.&quot;
I suppose one could also say the public is not all that interested in a fair and just outcome what they want is order. 

My recollection of history was that the outcome just or otherwise was arrived at by a  collective decision by the offenders relatives and neighbors. After awhile there would be a substantial set of precedents so the outcome could be predicted with a variable level of confidence. The problem with that approach was the relatives had too much influence in deciding the outcome. Keep in mind that in those days repeat offenders were stoned to death by their neighbors or sold as slaves.

A simple test of the outcome would be to see if order was restored and tempers cooled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill Cosby once said &#8220;Parents are not interested in justice. What they want is quite.&#8221;<br />
I suppose one could also say the public is not all that interested in a fair and just outcome what they want is order. </p>
<p>My recollection of history was that the outcome just or otherwise was arrived at by a  collective decision by the offenders relatives and neighbors. After awhile there would be a substantial set of precedents so the outcome could be predicted with a variable level of confidence. The problem with that approach was the relatives had too much influence in deciding the outcome. Keep in mind that in those days repeat offenders were stoned to death by their neighbors or sold as slaves.</p>
<p>A simple test of the outcome would be to see if order was restored and tempers cooled.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Gamso</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9223</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Gamso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 02:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9223</guid>
		<description>And other than personal whim, how would one decide - and could we ever possibly agree - on what &quot;fair and just&quot; outcomes are.  Forget the difficulty in measuring any actual outcome against the &quot;fair and just&quot; goal, I don&#039;t see how we get to agreement on the goal.

Edmund Spenser, the 16th Centruy English poet, in his epic The Faerie Queene, gave us the character of Sir Artegall, the knight of Justice.  But Artegal&#039;s justice was too harsh.  As a character, he&#039;s incomplete and must be balanced by the gracious Mercilla (mercy, of course).

Spenser&#039;s didactic point is that justice must be tempered by mercy.  Pure, it is as dangerous as law untethered to them - or process by itself.  (Consider Scalia&#039;s view that the Constitution is not offended by the imprisonment - or even the execution - of an innocent person as long as the person has received due process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And other than personal whim, how would one decide &#8211; and could we ever possibly agree &#8211; on what &#8220;fair and just&#8221; outcomes are.  Forget the difficulty in measuring any actual outcome against the &#8220;fair and just&#8221; goal, I don&#8217;t see how we get to agreement on the goal.</p>
<p>Edmund Spenser, the 16th Centruy English poet, in his epic The Faerie Queene, gave us the character of Sir Artegall, the knight of Justice.  But Artegal&#8217;s justice was too harsh.  As a character, he&#8217;s incomplete and must be balanced by the gracious Mercilla (mercy, of course).</p>
<p>Spenser&#8217;s didactic point is that justice must be tempered by mercy.  Pure, it is as dangerous as law untethered to them &#8211; or process by itself.  (Consider Scalia&#8217;s view that the Constitution is not offended by the imprisonment &#8211; or even the execution &#8211; of an innocent person as long as the person has received due process.</p>
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		<title>By: John Neff</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9220</link>
		<dc:creator>John Neff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 00:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9220</guid>
		<description>I would describe the &quot;system&quot; as a confederation of intergovernmental agencies with a common set of clients. In spite of the fact that each agency has a fiercely independent administration and an independent funding source there is a remarkable degree of interagency cooperation at the operational level even though there is no system wide oversight and planning.

I did say that a fair and just outcome was a goal. I have no idea how often that goal is achieved. As far I know there is nothing equivalent to a batting average for the &quot;system&quot;. The plea bargaining process makes it nearly impossible for the general public to determine if the outcome is fair and just (assuming they are capable of making such a determination). The appeals process appears to be the only peer review and it has a very restricted scope. 

I think a fair and just outcome would be more likely if the peer review was at the front end of the process rather than at the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would describe the &#8220;system&#8221; as a confederation of intergovernmental agencies with a common set of clients. In spite of the fact that each agency has a fiercely independent administration and an independent funding source there is a remarkable degree of interagency cooperation at the operational level even though there is no system wide oversight and planning.</p>
<p>I did say that a fair and just outcome was a goal. I have no idea how often that goal is achieved. As far I know there is nothing equivalent to a batting average for the &#8220;system&#8221;. The plea bargaining process makes it nearly impossible for the general public to determine if the outcome is fair and just (assuming they are capable of making such a determination). The appeals process appears to be the only peer review and it has a very restricted scope. </p>
<p>I think a fair and just outcome would be more likely if the peer review was at the front end of the process rather than at the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9217</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 23:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9217</guid>
		<description>John, the system, not being sentient, cannot have intent. Its human components can, and I&#039;ll stipulate that most of the human components of the criminal justice system want (what they see as) a fair and just outcome. But there&#039;s many a slip twixt cup and lip, and there&#039;s nothing about the system that makes justice its inevitable product, or even its likely product. You might be interested in my post from yesterday on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, the system, not being sentient, cannot have intent. Its human components can, and I&#8217;ll stipulate that most of the human components of the criminal justice system want (what they see as) a fair and just outcome. But there&#8217;s many a slip twixt cup and lip, and there&#8217;s nothing about the system that makes justice its inevitable product, or even its likely product. You might be interested in my post from yesterday on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: John Kindley</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9211</link>
		<dc:creator>John Kindley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 22:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9211</guid>
		<description>Yes, of course we live in a real world. I agreed with you that in fact legislatures are not guided by any principled definition of what constitutes criminal behavior. They make up crimes on an ad hoc basis. That doesn&#039;t mean, however, that such a principled definition doesn&#039;t exist, and that legislatures couldn&#039;t and shouldn&#039;t be guided by such principles. 

Here&#039;s the first part of Spooner&#039;s &quot;Vices Are Not Crimes,&quot; which accord with what I quoted from Jefferson:

Vices are those acts by which a man harms himself or his property.

Crimes are those acts by which one man harms the person or property of another.

Vices are simply the errors which a man makes in his search after his own happiness. Unlike crimes, they imply no malice toward others, and no interference with their persons or property.

In vices, the very essence of crime --- that is, the design to injure the person or property of another --- is wanting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, of course we live in a real world. I agreed with you that in fact legislatures are not guided by any principled definition of what constitutes criminal behavior. They make up crimes on an ad hoc basis. That doesn&#8217;t mean, however, that such a principled definition doesn&#8217;t exist, and that legislatures couldn&#8217;t and shouldn&#8217;t be guided by such principles. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the first part of Spooner&#8217;s &#8220;Vices Are Not Crimes,&#8221; which accord with what I quoted from Jefferson:</p>
<p>Vices are those acts by which a man harms himself or his property.</p>
<p>Crimes are those acts by which one man harms the person or property of another.</p>
<p>Vices are simply the errors which a man makes in his search after his own happiness. Unlike crimes, they imply no malice toward others, and no interference with their persons or property.</p>
<p>In vices, the very essence of crime &#8212; that is, the design to injure the person or property of another &#8212; is wanting.</p>
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		<title>By: John Neff</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html/comment-page-1#comment-9208</link>
		<dc:creator>John Neff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/06/law-and-justice-explained.html#comment-9208</guid>
		<description>Speaking as an astronomer we live in what appears to be a real world. I don&#039;t think Jefferson advanced very far towards a general definition of criminal behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking as an astronomer we live in what appears to be a real world. I don&#8217;t think Jefferson advanced very far towards a general definition of criminal behavior.</p>
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