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	<title>Comments on: Proof that Lawyers Can Survive Without Honor.</title>
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	<description>the tao of criminal defense trial lawyering</description>
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		<title>By: john dough</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9321</link>
		<dc:creator>john dough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>An imaginary letter from Messrs. Kunz and Coventry to Mr. Logan:

Dear Mr. Logan,

Please allow us to introduce ourselves. We represented Mr. Wilson. He confessed to us back in 1983 that he committed the crimes for which you were punished. We decided not to reveal the information until after he died, meaning you spent 25 years in prison rotting for his deeds. Thank you for your understanding.

Despite unspeakable suffering you probably experienced at the hands of some of the most violent inmates in the State of Illinois, you will be proud to know that we upheld our oath and did not violate attorney-client privelege. We made the CHOICE, 25 years ago, that allegiance to an oath and to our client was more important than honor, integrity and truth. We realize it was inconvenient for you to miss weddings, funerals, birthdays, dinners at home with your family, going to sleep in your own bed and the like. However, we made a CHOICE that your freedom was less important than our client&#039;s.

Once our client died, we still CHOSE not to reveal the truth until a judge told us it was okay. We are now ready to receive the thanks and the gratitude owed us by the State, our brethren in the legal community, and by YOU. While your incarceration was probably a little unpleasant, we have honored our oath and committment to a set of rules not based on justice and truth. Thanks again for your understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An imaginary letter from Messrs. Kunz and Coventry to Mr. Logan:</p>
<p>Dear Mr. Logan,</p>
<p>Please allow us to introduce ourselves. We represented Mr. Wilson. He confessed to us back in 1983 that he committed the crimes for which you were punished. We decided not to reveal the information until after he died, meaning you spent 25 years in prison rotting for his deeds. Thank you for your understanding.</p>
<p>Despite unspeakable suffering you probably experienced at the hands of some of the most violent inmates in the State of Illinois, you will be proud to know that we upheld our oath and did not violate attorney-client privelege. We made the CHOICE, 25 years ago, that allegiance to an oath and to our client was more important than honor, integrity and truth. We realize it was inconvenient for you to miss weddings, funerals, birthdays, dinners at home with your family, going to sleep in your own bed and the like. However, we made a CHOICE that your freedom was less important than our client&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Once our client died, we still CHOSE not to reveal the truth until a judge told us it was okay. We are now ready to receive the thanks and the gratitude owed us by the State, our brethren in the legal community, and by YOU. While your incarceration was probably a little unpleasant, we have honored our oath and committment to a set of rules not based on justice and truth. Thanks again for your understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9320</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 13:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html#comment-9320</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;. . . to the extent that your point was that one of the lawyers publicy stated “I had no choice”, when clearly he did.  . .&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What clued you in that that was my point? Did you happen to notice that that was my &lt;i&gt;entire&lt;/i&gt; point? That I led off by saying that &quot;I had no choice&quot; was a lie, and closed with the lawyers&#039; eagerness &quot;to substitute the dictates of the law for those of their own hearts&quot;? That I never said or even implied that the outcome would have or should have been different if they had followed ethics instead of the law?

And you&#039;re one of my sharper readers. I despair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>. . . to the extent that your point was that one of the lawyers publicy stated “I had no choice”, when clearly he did.  . .</p></blockquote>
<p>What clued you in that that was my point? Did you happen to notice that that was my <i>entire</i> point? That I led off by saying that &#8220;I had no choice&#8221; was a lie, and closed with the lawyers&#8217; eagerness &#8220;to substitute the dictates of the law for those of their own hearts&#8221;? That I never said or even implied that the outcome would have or should have been different if they had followed ethics instead of the law?</p>
<p>And you&#8217;re one of my sharper readers. I despair.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9318</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 04:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html#comment-9318</guid>
		<description>I haven’t weighed until now, but I’ve wondered about Linus’ question as well.

Certainly you would agree (I think you have as much said so already – or that I can infer it) that if breaking the DRs would almost conclusively &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; have helped Logan, then not breaking them was the correct course of action.

Let’s not forget that prosecutors, who as a group don’t let insignificant details like proof-of-actual-innocence-by-way-of-DNA deter their efforts to keep a he-had-a-jury-trial-didn’t-he? innocent defendant in prison, might not have cared a whit about the “supposed confession” and might well have figured out a way to keep Logan in prison.

Or maybe not.  But it’s gotta factor into the decision.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/06/60minutes/main3914719_page3.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Also:&lt;/A&gt;

      The attorneys say they were so tormented over Logan&#039;s imprisonment that they convinced Wilson to let them reveal that Wilson was the real killer after Wilson&#039;s death.

Assuming that&#039;s true (there doesn&#039;t seem to be an affidavit to that effect in the &quot;locked box&quot;) it&#039;s not like they did nothing.  And it solves the 1983/2008 conundrum.

Also the lawyers were apparently retired when they came forward, so I tend to take them at their word that their main concern was not simply &quot;Ouch, I might be disbarred&quot;.

But to the extent that your point was that one of the lawyers publicy stated &quot;I had no choice&quot;, when clearly he did... I agree with you.

Dammit.  This is one of those comments that went on so long that I&#039;m regretting not just posting it on my own damn blog :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven’t weighed until now, but I’ve wondered about Linus’ question as well.</p>
<p>Certainly you would agree (I think you have as much said so already – or that I can infer it) that if breaking the DRs would almost conclusively <i>not</i> have helped Logan, then not breaking them was the correct course of action.</p>
<p>Let’s not forget that prosecutors, who as a group don’t let insignificant details like proof-of-actual-innocence-by-way-of-DNA deter their efforts to keep a he-had-a-jury-trial-didn’t-he? innocent defendant in prison, might not have cared a whit about the “supposed confession” and might well have figured out a way to keep Logan in prison.</p>
<p>Or maybe not.  But it’s gotta factor into the decision.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/06/60minutes/main3914719_page3.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody" rel="nofollow">Also:</a></p>
<p>      The attorneys say they were so tormented over Logan&#8217;s imprisonment that they convinced Wilson to let them reveal that Wilson was the real killer after Wilson&#8217;s death.</p>
<p>Assuming that&#8217;s true (there doesn&#8217;t seem to be an affidavit to that effect in the &#8220;locked box&#8221;) it&#8217;s not like they did nothing.  And it solves the 1983/2008 conundrum.</p>
<p>Also the lawyers were apparently retired when they came forward, so I tend to take them at their word that their main concern was not simply &#8220;Ouch, I might be disbarred&#8221;.</p>
<p>But to the extent that your point was that one of the lawyers publicy stated &#8220;I had no choice&#8221;, when clearly he did&#8230; I agree with you.</p>
<p>Dammit.  This is one of those comments that went on so long that I&#8217;m regretting not just posting it on my own damn blog <img src='http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Thomas R. Griffith (The Griffith Files - 1984 &#38; Beyond)</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9302</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas R. Griffith (The Griffith Files - 1984 &#38; Beyond)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html#comment-9302</guid>
		<description>Mr. B., Thanks for taking time to re-explain your post to death to the ADA&#039;S (former included) &amp; defenders of the dynamic duo in which the post is about.  I think one of them (replies) is actually one of the duo.  Surely no C. D. lawyer / attorney worth his salt would publicly announce his / her true opinon in this matter (like some have) for it could backfire when &amp; if  potential clients research prior to hiring.  You have to wonder how some sleep at night, then of course some sleep at the defense table just fine.  Please consider some future post re: the wrongfully convicted here in Texas (especially the ones that don&#039;t deal with DNA) obtained with the assistance of our dear ol freind Nolo Contendere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. B., Thanks for taking time to re-explain your post to death to the ADA&#8217;S (former included) &amp; defenders of the dynamic duo in which the post is about.  I think one of them (replies) is actually one of the duo.  Surely no C. D. lawyer / attorney worth his salt would publicly announce his / her true opinon in this matter (like some have) for it could backfire when &amp; if  potential clients research prior to hiring.  You have to wonder how some sleep at night, then of course some sleep at the defense table just fine.  Please consider some future post re: the wrongfully convicted here in Texas (especially the ones that don&#8217;t deal with DNA) obtained with the assistance of our dear ol freind Nolo Contendere.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9300</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html#comment-9300</guid>
		<description>I think that if someone feels that they need to hide behind a rule, perhaps because they themselves feel insufficient to weigh the pros and cons, then we might instead applaud their ability to not step into territory that has been thoroughly thought out by others.  On the other hand if someone, such as the author, decided to abandon the rule, then perhaps we could look into the justifications for your doing so.  To me this is analogous to a rule of evidence issue - we have commentators who have spent many years weighing and carving the rules into what they are today, and it would be absurd to replace that collective wisdom with judicial discretion.  When judges begin with their moral compass and twist the rules to achieve the result they want or that they feel is just, they compromise the integrity of the system.  I don&#039;t see how someone who feels personally inadequate to make the decision himself, and instead defers to the long established rules, should be seen as a coward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that if someone feels that they need to hide behind a rule, perhaps because they themselves feel insufficient to weigh the pros and cons, then we might instead applaud their ability to not step into territory that has been thoroughly thought out by others.  On the other hand if someone, such as the author, decided to abandon the rule, then perhaps we could look into the justifications for your doing so.  To me this is analogous to a rule of evidence issue &#8211; we have commentators who have spent many years weighing and carving the rules into what they are today, and it would be absurd to replace that collective wisdom with judicial discretion.  When judges begin with their moral compass and twist the rules to achieve the result they want or that they feel is just, they compromise the integrity of the system.  I don&#8217;t see how someone who feels personally inadequate to make the decision himself, and instead defers to the long established rules, should be seen as a coward.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9298</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html#comment-9298</guid>
		<description>I read somewhere recently that there are some truths self-evident beyond any need for a cite. That it is good and ethical, when it is in your power, to keep a man from spending 25 years in prison for a crime that he did not commit is, I believe, one of these truths.

I&#039;m taking for granted that the lawyers&#039; testimony would have freed Mr. Logan as effectively in 1983 as in 2008. If you want to do the admissibility analysis, have at it—one possible outcome would have been that Wilson&#039;s statements to Kunz were admissible in Logan&#039;s favor, but not against Wilson. And oh, by the way, the attorney-client privilege survives the client&#039;s death (by common law, which I believe Illinois follows in such matters), so if it was unethical for Kunz to reveal Wilson&#039;s confidence in 1983, it was unethical in 2008.

You are correct that my critique is of the process, rather than the conclusion. I think Kunz&#039;s craven statements of gratitude at being compelled to a course of action by a disciplinary rule gives us all of the insight into the process that we need.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read somewhere recently that there are some truths self-evident beyond any need for a cite. That it is good and ethical, when it is in your power, to keep a man from spending 25 years in prison for a crime that he did not commit is, I believe, one of these truths.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m taking for granted that the lawyers&#8217; testimony would have freed Mr. Logan as effectively in 1983 as in 2008. If you want to do the admissibility analysis, have at it—one possible outcome would have been that Wilson&#8217;s statements to Kunz were admissible in Logan&#8217;s favor, but not against Wilson. And oh, by the way, the attorney-client privilege survives the client&#8217;s death (by common law, which I believe Illinois follows in such matters), so if it was unethical for Kunz to reveal Wilson&#8217;s confidence in 1983, it was unethical in 2008.</p>
<p>You are correct that my critique is of the process, rather than the conclusion. I think Kunz&#8217;s craven statements of gratitude at being compelled to a course of action by a disciplinary rule gives us all of the insight into the process that we need.</p>
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		<title>By: Linus</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9297</link>
		<dc:creator>Linus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html#comment-9297</guid>
		<description>Sorry, accidentally clicked submit while editing. That second paragraph should finish with &quot;(as I&#039;m sure someone has done it on this case) that&#039;d be great.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, accidentally clicked submit while editing. That second paragraph should finish with &#8220;(as I&#8217;m sure someone has done it on this case) that&#8217;d be great.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Linus</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9296</link>
		<dc:creator>Linus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html#comment-9296</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;More is at stake than just the immediate case and I think if you chose to take such a hard line against these two you have an obligation to address the consequences of having lawyers break this privilege whenever they feel that their own qualms interfere with the mandates that protect clients encourage them to be honest.&lt;/i&gt;

This is the same question I have. Are you honestly advocating that lawyers break their oath, and/or violate ethical rules any time they feel the &quot;higher law&quot; compels them to do so? I haven&#039;t seen any cite for the natural law upon which the higher law in this case is based. For the record, I agree with you, but I don&#039;t see it as so self-evidently true that it&#039;s beyond debate.  

Maybe I missed something, but how would their testimony about what their client told them get into evidence to help the innocent fellow? Isn&#039;t it hearsay? And just because they violate their ethical duties, doesn&#039;t the court still have to uphold the privilege and exclude it? If you have a link to an analysis 

Also, you seem quite critical of the process by which these gentlemen reached the conclusion they did. Was there something else besides this recent speech/presentation that gives us some insight (beyond the armchair kind) into their thought and logic process?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>More is at stake than just the immediate case and I think if you chose to take such a hard line against these two you have an obligation to address the consequences of having lawyers break this privilege whenever they feel that their own qualms interfere with the mandates that protect clients encourage them to be honest.</i></p>
<p>This is the same question I have. Are you honestly advocating that lawyers break their oath, and/or violate ethical rules any time they feel the &#8220;higher law&#8221; compels them to do so? I haven&#8217;t seen any cite for the natural law upon which the higher law in this case is based. For the record, I agree with you, but I don&#8217;t see it as so self-evidently true that it&#8217;s beyond debate.  </p>
<p>Maybe I missed something, but how would their testimony about what their client told them get into evidence to help the innocent fellow? Isn&#8217;t it hearsay? And just because they violate their ethical duties, doesn&#8217;t the court still have to uphold the privilege and exclude it? If you have a link to an analysis </p>
<p>Also, you seem quite critical of the process by which these gentlemen reached the conclusion they did. Was there something else besides this recent speech/presentation that gives us some insight (beyond the armchair kind) into their thought and logic process?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas R. Griffith (The Griffith Files - 1984 &#38; Beyond)</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9292</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas R. Griffith (The Griffith Files - 1984 &#38; Beyond)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html#comment-9292</guid>
		<description>Mr. B., Honor for Sale, love the piece, hate the topic because I fear it&#039;s running rampant in Texas.  These questions come to mind. * When a lawyer / attorney has a client that he knows to be 100 % innocent of the charges ( but is on probation) is it his duty to fight to the very end or plea out the client for 10 yrs. during luch recess &amp; tell no one what he knows ? ( It has to be unethical to knowingly advise &amp; allow your client to plead nolo contendere to a crime the police report alone shows him to be innocent of)  In this scenerio, what should ones ethical responsibility be to the convicted from that moment on in regards to being a human first &amp; so on ?   Have you considered these two Bozos for this months award yet? Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. B., Honor for Sale, love the piece, hate the topic because I fear it&#8217;s running rampant in Texas.  These questions come to mind. * When a lawyer / attorney has a client that he knows to be 100 % innocent of the charges ( but is on probation) is it his duty to fight to the very end or plea out the client for 10 yrs. during luch recess &amp; tell no one what he knows ? ( It has to be unethical to knowingly advise &amp; allow your client to plead nolo contendere to a crime the police report alone shows him to be innocent of)  In this scenerio, what should ones ethical responsibility be to the convicted from that moment on in regards to being a human first &amp; so on ?   Have you considered these two Bozos for this months award yet? Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennett</title>
		<link>http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html/comment-page-1#comment-9289</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 23:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bennettandbennett.com/blog/2009/07/proof-that-lawyers-can-survive-without-honor.html#comment-9289</guid>
		<description>All of this would be an appropriate part of the ethical discussion that Kunz should have had, at least with himself. And, as I&#039;ve suggested repeatedly, he might have followed the same course of action after going through the appropriate discussion.

So why is it a problem that he renounces ethical responsibility for his actions (and &quot;I had no choice&quot; is a clear renunciation of ethical responsibility)?

It is a problem because it is founded in a lie. We always have a choice. My next post will demonstrate that, and will explain why it&#039;s wrong ever to allow the rules to make ethical decisions for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of this would be an appropriate part of the ethical discussion that Kunz should have had, at least with himself. And, as I&#8217;ve suggested repeatedly, he might have followed the same course of action after going through the appropriate discussion.</p>
<p>So why is it a problem that he renounces ethical responsibility for his actions (and &#8220;I had no choice&#8221; is a clear renunciation of ethical responsibility)?</p>
<p>It is a problem because it is founded in a lie. We always have a choice. My next post will demonstrate that, and will explain why it&#8217;s wrong ever to allow the rules to make ethical decisions for us.</p>
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